5 Comments

1. Matthew Brown says:

   December 11, 2009 at 3:13 pm

   I seem to have always had more break offs with a surgeons knot. The worst and last time was tying a #20 royal wulff for a buddy while helping him spot fish for a very large Cutthroat on the Green River about 16 years ago. He got the fish to take and the line broke at the tippet knot. I had just reassured my friend that surgeon’s knots are just as good as blood knots. Now I can’t be sure it wasn’t tippet or something, but we were both guiding at the time so I am sure we were using pretty fresh tippet. I felt like a big jerk after that, let me assure you. :)
2. JB says:

   December 11, 2009 at 6:38 pm

   Matthew—Sorry to hear about the loss of a memorable fish due to a knot issue (we all know your pain, I’m guessing). I don’t know which variation you were using at the time, but I personally don’t use a standard Surgeon’s (two-turn) for most trout/salmon/etc fishing, instead preferring the three-turn variation (there is a also a four-turn variation, that tied/set properly, has been shown to be exceedingly strong). The three-turn has proven itself well to me over the years in terms of the combo of speed, strength, and the ability to tie it/set it well (that’s key) even in bad light/no light (there’s a trick for that).

   It is important, I think, in making the Surgeon’s (three-turn) to be sure that it draws down properly, and that there is no “slop” in the knot resulting from poor tensioning of the shorter ends on draw-down. In my experience, I think it is easier for more people to recognize a malformed Blood Knot, but the three-turn Surgeon’s, tied well and drawn down cleanly, has done some great service for me.

   I often prefer Blood Knots in the leader body (provided I have a little extra time to do the tying), since they are sleek and the line enters/exits straight (versus the slight “bow” that can result with the Surgeon’s, especially in heavier materials). A long Blood Knot tag-end also makes for a nice, clean dropper point, too.

   That said, if you (or any FF&W reader) is more comfortable tying/using a Blood Knot all the way down the leader/tippet system, and get better results in the end (that would the fishing test), then do what you need to do (a knot that one can’t tie well, or has trouble tying consistently, likely won’t be strong, no matter what).
3. Matthew Brown says:

   December 12, 2009 at 12:50 pm

   Probably at the time I was using a 2 turn surgeon. That could have been the problem. I have since just learned to tie blood knots pretty quickly. When I first started, I tried to follow diagrams which made me think I had to do all the twisting first and then try and push the tag ends through the loop, which is nearly impossible. I have since learned the trick was to twist one side first bring the tag through the crotch and then twist the other side bringing that tag through the same loop as the first tag. If it isn’t too cold out, I can tie that just about as fast as any other knot.
4. Bert says:

   December 12, 2009 at 4:00 pm

   Matt, you have it right. Start with the thicker material first, twist and set the tag in the crotch. Now twist the other side and the smaller tag fits nicely along side the thicker tag from the first step.
5. JB says:

   December 12, 2009 at 4:44 pm

   @Matt and Bert—”Ditto” (especially the “set” of the first half of the knot. Makes life easier from then on…).